What Makes A Great Harp Amp?
I'm a tinkerer. When I wanted to make my own beer, I built a fully automated 1/2 barrel stainless steel brewery that keeps process temperatures within 1/2 a degree. When I wanted a nice set of golf clubs, I learned all about club making and built my own set to my specifications. Now that I'm getting into harmonica, I'm wondering if building an amp would be a nice project and get me exactly what I want, too.
It seems that with every off-the-shelf amp out there, there are trade-offs for harp usage. A few companies manufacture amps specifically for harp use, but as someone who doesn't really plan on performing, they are priced higher than I would like to spend.* I was thinking with a bit of education, I could build a high-end box for a mid-end price. Plus, it would feed my ADD need to do stupid things like this. So I come to this question:
What makes a great harp amp?
Are there resources out there to educate myself on this topic? Are there books? What suppliers of parts would you recommend?
David, I wouldn't mind if you chimed in here, too. This is your fault that I'm thinking about this because of your new Equipment videos (my wife will blame you personally later).
*BTW, I know I wont really save any money on this project in the end. My brewery cost me nearly 10 grand to build. I'd have to buy a LOT of beer to make up for that. I just use this argument to satisfy my wife and to fool myself when embarking on these idiotic adventures.
"People Who Waste Money Doing Stupid Things To Support Their Hobby Through The Satisfaction Of Their ADD."
Or...
PWWMDSTSTHTSTADD for short.
Skip is the man to answer this, but I guess I can put my 5 cents in!
I understand your obsession to learn and experience these things for yourself... there's value in that, and fun.
For example... In the early days, there was zero information out there on mics used for harp. In my day, there were only two guys in the mic word that I was aware of, Tom Ellis III and Fritz Hasenpusch. We shared ideas and such, but the only way to really learn about them was to buy 'em all. Luckily it was the early days of eBay and one could buy most mics from $20 to $100, especially if you knew what key words to use. So, by the end of my journey I had owned around 120 mics and even started selling my own mic line. That was the only way to learn... you had to buy, hold, play, take apart, research, etc. to come up with your own rules of thumb.
In the end, the few mics I still have are basically the ones I started with... what people who I respected recommended from the beginning.
With that said... to your question...
There are common elements that make a good harp amp. Small, Tube, 10" speaker(s), hand wired is nice, as few as possible components, not overly thick wood for the cabinet and baffle, and a cool look! ;-) For the most part what I'm describing is what they made in the 1950's. These amps where cheap... the mics we use are cheap... our mics were the cheapest you could buy at the time... our amps where practice amps that came with lap steel guitars (with the covering of the amp matching the covering on the lap steel case!).
In my experience, the SMALLEST detail can make a huge difference in sound... which can make the process maddening to find the right combination (ask amp expert Sonny Jr). And... you can use all the parts that are considered by all to be the best, and come up with an amp that sounds like crap. The ones who have done the best have started as collectors of what amps are known to sound good, like I did with the mics, and took them apart to find what made them sound good. You buy, sell, buy, sell, buy, sell... and over time you learn what makes the amps you like sound the best, then build an amp you "hope" will sound good in the end.
My last point is you need to be a great amplified player to know what you're looking for. I've played many amps from people that weren't good players that said their amp was the "wholly grail" and they simply didn't sound good. All the great harmonica customizers are GREAT players.
So, with all that said... you could dabble with making your own amp, and no doubt you'll have fun in the process and learn loads, but I wouldn't expect the outcome to be as good as buying what players already known to sound good. Maybe a good way to go is to purchase an amp kit...
I see your point: Know how to play and what to listen for - then you'll know what to look for.
But...
I have to think that after fifty years of amp design and construction, certain circuits and configurations have stood out in developing units for harp usage.
My schooling is in electrical engineering. As I've said on this site, I've also spent a good number of years in a pretty active rock band. I know electronics, and I know sound - but it seems that all of that gets thrown out the window when it comes to harp amplification: Simple is better. The lowest end components were what sounded best.
I've seen it said that the simpler the circuit, driven through a 10" speaker, generally with a 5Y3, 6V6, and 12AX7 tube signal path are what works best. But then I see the MegaTones and the Harp Kings and I wonder, what have they done to "tweak" the system for harp use?
Also, looking back in time, which classic amp circuits were the ones to have when it came to harp? Some of the old tweeds go as high as $16,000.00 these days. Unless you are a pro player with a thing for collection, they are quickly becoming out of reach. But on the other hand, building one and copying the old styles component for component, could be a great substitute - with a couple of tweaks thrown in to compensate for the idiosyncrasies of harp usage. It would be nice to know what the masters were playing back "in the day", and what the masters these days - like you - look for when digging through that pile of old amps in the yard sale down the street.
Can you expand on your thoughts?
I go for the oldest and most beat up amp in the house! ;-) I'm going to leave this for Skip... this is his expertise.
I've been down this road and don't recommend it to be honest. You'll screw around forever chasing the "sound". Yeah it IS fun, but it's a huge waste of time. Have Skip build you a PA amp, and tinker with harmonicas, they're cheaper! It's also more likely to improve your playing. I guarantee you it's interesting for the tinkerer.
Hello and thanks for writing. Your mention of making beer leads to some good answers to your question! Let's talk making beer and building tube amps.
1) There is no best. I like Anchor Steam, but there is nothing like a cold Pabst Blue Ribbon while barbecuing.
2) Your first few batches of beer weren't perfect, were they? There is always room for improvement in an art like beer making or amp building,
3) You have a great chance of making a good beer, an OK chance of making a great beer, and almost no chance of making a beer that will be everyone's favorite.
4) Enjoy learning about and making your own your own beer. Enjoy the process, but don't expect to "improve" an established classic or "define" what makes a good beer.
Skip Simmons
Harpwrench wrote:
"Yeah it IS fun, but it's a huge waste of time."
Do you have any idea how many times I've heard that from my wife? You should see my attic!
Skip wrote:
"Enjoy the process, but don't expect to "improve" an established classic or "define" what makes a good beer."
And I guess the "process" is really what I'm getting at here (although I really DO make KILLER beer!).
It really comes down to this: I have this bone in my head that makes me want to do silly stuff like this. In the end, the only person I've convinced that I made the "best" of something is me (except my beer, did I mention it's REALLY good?).
While I'm certain it would take a lifetime to become as knowledgeable and as skilled as you, I have this curiosity to at least peek into the world that you work in, and try a little bit of it myself for the fun of it.
At it's most basic, I'd like to know about what most folks in the pro world have found that worked - for them. We have 50 years or so of history with this. As to basic assembly, the schematics are all over the web for the classic designs, even though some of the components are tough to duplicate these days.
So without trying to improve or define the classics I have these questions:
- What were the classics?
- What were the amps that the "masters" used in the 50s, 60s, and 70s?
- Why did they use them?
- What are some of the modification techniques that amp-makers use in modern times to either duplicate what was lost or use modern design mods to enhance the amp for harp use?
- Does case design matter? How?
As I realize you have a business to run and I'm thinking you wouldn't want to take me under your wing and start calling me "Grasshopper," (I suck at wax on/wax off anyway) I'm wondering if there are good resources available out there to learn from.
In the end, this is just something to quiet that bone in my head without resorting to heavy medication. Plus, I'm thinking that a bit of in-depth study on the topic of amps for harp use might be of some interest to a few others on this board as well. Sorry for my persistence, my wife by now has just learned to roll her eyes, nod her head, and let me go.
Oh, and I should tell you - I make UNBELIEVABLE beer! Did I say that already?
Or, you could just say: "Go away boy, y'bother me!"
I'd be okay with that, too. ;o)
jjudson ;
3 ways to get started
1:) Look into the amp kits as Dave suggested just google amp kits (looking for 3 tubes 12ax7,6v6GT,5y3gt just a list to give you something to know your in the ball park not an "end all" list of specs)
2:) Buy old amps like Kalamazoo 1 or 2 however beware some are solid state you want tube approx 3 as a rule no bigger unless you want to get into a whole other level of amp building and design also masco and Valco/Supro/Ohua?sp? Fender Champ, these are just some names to search for on your quest so that you can start out focused on making an amp and not vodka instead of beer
3.) Here's another tip buy the dvd by Kendrick Amplifiers called understanding vacuum tube and guitar amplifiers very good basic electronic information for the beginner. Look for and read books on the subject of tubes and amps lots of info out there also great forums on the subject with lots of help doing exactly what your doing.
For what it's worth if you don't have the right cup no amp will sound good, the small amps are much more forgiving but know this a large 4-spker amp is different than playing a small 1 speaker 1950's amp.
Good luck!! and Oh yea! keep 1 hand behind your back when working with lethal voltages
Here's a link to my gallery at the Suncoast Harmonica Club website we have had a "Amp Taste Test" for the last 3 years we are a small group in Florida but you'll see some pretty nice antiques that sound great.
http://www.suncoastharmonicaclub.org/phpga/albums.php?set_albumListPage=1
Actually, I have a pretty good knowledge of amplifier theory as it relates to guitar, voice, and other instruments. I even have a few nice vintage amps of my own (I just picked up two more - a 1952 wide panel Fender Tweed DeLuxe Reverb and a 1961 Fender Pro - earlier this week). All of that goes out the window though, when it comes to harp apparently.
I think I'm jumping the gun a bit here. I need to spend more time experimenting with different amp and mic combos to learn the sound characteristics myself before setting out to "do-it-myself."
I'll definitely check out your website, though. Thanks!
Hello spl20-
I would disagree that new books, videos, and forums are a great way to get started learning about tube amps. You will learn a lot, but of lot of it will be things that aren't true!
The kit idea is O.K., I like the Kalamazoo 1 and 2, but jjudson's comment about "experimenting with different amp and mic combos to learn the sound characteristics before setting out to do it myself" is pure gold!
Skip Simmons
So if much of the information on the web is not true about tube amps, why am I to believe what's on your web site ? I think I can because I can decern what's true or not and remember jjudson is an EE by trade so I think he is capable of sifting through a few untruths.
Anytime you are trying to learn you are bound to get some bad info, not everyone is a pureist when it comes to amps and the sound that can only be derived from 50 year old caps like a fine wine. I'm pretty sure jjudson made some skunk beer before the good stuff and if he pursues this it won't be any different.
Experimenting is always great however experimenting with different mic/amp combos will only be "gold" if jjudson is proficient with mics,cupping and playing amped which I would not expect to be the case when asking these kinds of questions.
thats great now i know im not the only one